Look... please stop repeating all the same Republican defenses to Palin as the VP choice and make up your own mind.  Palin is not a maverick pick, she's a token pick for McCain who hopes to get Hillary voters and win an election regardless of whether she is the best choice for the country, but Hillary voters are smarter than that. So much for "Country First" This choice is a blessing for Obama because it contradicts all the arguments that McCain brought up about Obama.. and what Country First is he talking about?  Its interesting to me that there is no diversity at this convention. Why is that? and I'm not talking about the few wealthy black people sprinkled throughout the convention.  America is full of all ethnic backgrounds and cultures but I see none of that represented at this convention.  Maybe its because it doesn't fit into the "values" of the Republican Base.  No one wants to say it but I will... I'd love to hear your responses.

If there is discussion, then we should discuss all of the points of view.

-Evolution

-Christian/Muslim/Jewish creationism (because this is the same story from the same source)

-Hindu creationism

-Inuit creationism

-Aborigine creationism

-Native American creationism

-Chinese creationism

-Greek creationism

-Scientology's theories of how the world was created

-And any others

This should accompanied by a curriculum teaching critical thinking and evaluation, philosophy and world history.

I saw your link, thank you - you don't need to reproduce it.

These are the sweeping generalizations being pushed out of AK and her supporters. Some of us like a whole lot more detail and not just adjectives.

As for the outside DC, sorry - don't buy it when so many quotes from her reflect a totally Alaskan-centric focus. Again, I'm one of 299 million Americans who don't live in AK - I need someone in DC who understands DC.  Being an outsider has more than one connotation and they aren't all positive.

Jill
Writes Like She Talks

to bite -

Hasn't Barack been saying Washington is broken? Perhaps that's why he spent so much time on the campaign trail rather than in the Senate

Who has missed the most votes in the Senate while campaigning? John (since we're apparently on a first name basis with the candidates). Perhaps he thinks by not voting it will reinforce his "maverick" claim.

I'm amused by the efforts of Republicans to attack Obama with arguments that are often worse for McCain and Palin. The more you show me that it's all you've got the more I want to go out and get fitted for a dress for an inauguration ball ;)

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When Barack Obama headed the $160 million Annenberg challenge he turned down math-science grants for Hispanic kids, in favor of giving to essentially political organizations.

Non-partisan source for this issue, please?  Please point to the documents that prove this.

I live in Chicago (in the city, not in the suburbs), I work in education, and this is news to me.

No, actually, I don't make a good argument for school choice - school choice is understood as givign taxpayer dollars to parents to spend as they please on education. I don't believe in that.

Again - willfull ignorance you are playing here Anne - I do not advocate the teaching of religion in public school and that is obvious. What I wrote was that if you want creationism included in a public school curriculum, it would only be considered if it is offered as I described although I still doubt I'd support such a class without scrutinizing how it fit into the entire high school curriculum.

I believe that if you want creationism taught at all, it's either in an elective with all other religions and not in a science class of any type, or its in your parochial or private school that you pay for with your money, not mine.

Did you answer the question about creationsim in parochial schools in AK? Or your top private schools - what do that do?

Jill
Writes Like She Talks

Anne - no - it's not expected if an individual is pursuing a position in a government charged with governing 299 million people outside of AK.  What the quotes of Palin's demonstrate to me is an absence of thought ot aspiration to be in DC or govern 299 million people whose interests may be in direct conflict with Alaskans.

She'll need to work on discussing and devising complete responses to such concerns. I look forward to those.

Jill
Writes Like She Talks

Anne - I'll give the benefit of the doubt to you and just advise you about the Fordham foundation.

It is the most stridently in favor of privitzation of education that exists as a non-profit. I will say, they've been very critical, thank goodness, of the charter schools in Ohio and that gives us hope that as far as trying to develop charter schools as true charters, they have an interest. But their efforts to transform public education into one driven by school choice - in the sense I described earlier, is known to most people who know anything about the foundation.

Jill
Writes Like She Talks

Actually, I have seen an improvement in CPS (Chicago Public Schools) since the 1970's.  I wish I could say that there has been more.  CPS' enormous size (over 400,000 students), the socioeconomic status of its students (2/3rds from lower income families), and the diversity of its population (the students in my local public school speak 25 different languages at home) means that it is also an enormous challenge to manage.  The size of CPS' student population is larger than many American towns. 

This is significant because educational research shows that it is MUCH easier to obtain higher performance in smaller districts, schools and classrooms.  Size is one of our largest challenges.

Adding to this complexity are the long standing tensions between CPS administration and the teacher's union.  And there are faults on both sides.  I think more teachers should be evaluated on their classroom skills and held accountable/fired if they don't measure up, but the union makes this extremely difficult.  On the other hand, the administration does many things to make teachers' work more difficult and doesn't seem to support teachers very strongly.  So teachers feel pulled between parents, kids, principals, and administators with fewer resources and more complexity in their classrooms that more homogeneous suburban schools are blessed with.

Even with our size, diversity and complexity, we have a higher graduation rate than other school districts close to our size, including  Detroit, Baltimore, New York, Milwaukee, Cleveland, Los Angeles, Miami, Dallas, Denver and Houston.  We have a public high school in the Top 20 of the Greatest US Public High Schools as ranked by Newsweek (and no other school district our size does).  Lower performing schools are being weeded out and closed down while other schools are being reinvigorated and invested in.  

Do we still have problems?  Yes, a district of our and diversity size will always have problem, I imagine.  But we are working pretty hard on many different programs at many different schools in the district to address these.

I think you mention in the original post that you are from Alaska, yes? So I'm interested to know from you, what you think about that specific to Alaska school reform effort.

Parents will not be able to afford private schools even if we had 100% of our taxpayer money given to them to choose as they desire. But as I amsure you know, the primary objection to such suggestions is that it is my money and I do not want my money spent on religious institutions of any kind.  Likewise, geographic realities make such 100% consumer-driven markets untenable as far as providing any semblance of equality in educational opportunity.

Jill
Writes Like She Talks

Anne - do you now live in Alaska, or have you ever? I re-read the original post - I may have crossed wires - where exactly do you vote?

Also - no - they don't pay twice.  They choose to live in a democracy that takes taxpayer dollars and gives them to all sorts of things that a lot of us don't support - and many things that we not only support but support us.

Please - that is quite the talking point, but it's also quite inaccurate. 

JillWrites Like She Talks

Private schools cost less than public schools?  Um, what?  Source please.  Public schools are free to students here.

Do you mean the cost of running some private schools is less than public schools? Again, please cite an example.  If that is occuring somewhere, I imagine it is because private schools pay teachers less than public schools pay (or that was my experience when I worked one year in a private school...and we received no benefits), and the fact that private schools don't have to pay for the staff to comply with the legislative, reporting and administrative requirements of public schools.  In fact, if I never have to fill out the extensive reporting requirements of No Child Left Behind and can invest that time in instructional design, I would be a VERY happy teacher.  That, added to the reporting requirements imposed by the state and CPS, adds a lot of work to an otherwise already packed schedule. 

Classroom time may end in the mid-afternoon, but classroom teachers then run any after school elective programs (because there aren't paid staff to do that).  Then meet with parents.  Then school officials.  And each other.  And complete reports.  Finally, after all of that, they get to prepare curriculum, materials, and other things that make classroom time more efficient, high quality and engaging. 

If they have families, um, that takes time too.  And possibly a commute.

So, yes, the administrative requirements, size and diversity of public
schools increase the cost of running them.  And the time spent working
there.  When private schools have extra money, they build a new gym and take field trips.  When public schools have extra money (pretty much never happens), they get to buy paper and pencils!  Or hire a teacher's assistant to help run a classroom of 35 kids with 4-5 special needs kids who are getting mainstreamed.  

It IS different for private school teachers and I have experienced both.

"A small point. Private and parochial school parents pay taxes too...for schools their kids do not attend.

In effect they pay twice"

I live next door in Missouri. I believe that Illinois has an education tax credit, which reimburses families that spend a certain amount on education a year. Unless you live in a wealthy neighborhood with a big, fine home, the credit probably covers most of what you pay.

I personally don't agree with tax credits or vouchers, I pay taxes that go to the local school system AND I don't have any kids. I consider the money an investment in the future. It is the kids in public schools who will lead the country in the future--our investments should go to all the kids, not the privledged. Or the religious cultists, for that matter.

If people want private school, let them pay for it. Otherwise, your kids are always welcome at the local public school. Always welcome.

As for your assertion that private schools deliver a better education than public? Do you have links with facts to back up your assertion?  The only facts (such as http://www.livescience.com/health/080527-public-schools.html) I can find on public versus private is that in most cases, the public schools do as well or better than the private. Oh, there will always be the ivy league prep schools. But let's face it: the parents who send their kids to these schools aren't worried about school vouchers.

It's difficult to accept the credibility of your statements when you don't back them up with links to relevant, fact-based (not opinion based) material. An advantage to online discussions is you can always include a link.

If you want to phrase your comments as expressions of personal opinion, well then it's a different story. Express away. 

One thing when really, it's another.

Most teachers do not live in the district where they teach.  So if they send their kids to private school, they are doing so either because their home school district is inadequate or they prefer a different kind of education.

Also, since you say you've had kids, then you probably are very well aware that many parents, with and without means, often place their kids in whatever educational setting works best for them - including homeschool, unschool, parochial, private independent, special needs and so on. My three kids are very different and we've had them in a variety of settings as dictated by those needs - regardless of some of the hardships at times, and changed up because of the hardships at times.  Again - most people involved in education are keenly aware of the need to check out different settings, based on the child's needs - not only the family's demands.

In the meantime, Anne, you've yet to respond to what you think about the $1billion the Gates Foundation put into the small schools reform effort, starting in 2002, in 20 or so different states - including Alaska. I would like to know your opinion - I'm pretty sure Chicago has had similar reform efforts.

Jill
Writes Like She Talks

"well if you're a parent paying it, I think it is significant. For the
record, my kids went to public schools, but I think it is criminal that
poor kids are stuck in the failed Chicago schools. I believe 40% of
chicago teachers send their own kids to private schools, the system is
so bad."

Did your kids go to Chicago Public schools? Or did they go to school in Wilmette? I'm just wondering what kind of authority you have to speak about the CPS school system other than an academic who reads a lot. And I mean no disrespect by that. But, as someone who actually lives in the city of Chicago, not the suburbs, I see a very different picture. I, and many of my neighbors, have chosen to enroll our kids in the neighborhood public school at the preschool level, join the  PTO, talk to the mayor's office again and again and again to work for resources, and many of us actually lost deposits on private schools when we made this decision to put our kids in CPS. Private schools - especially the ones that offered similar resources to our neighborhood school - were simply too expensive and lacked the diversity we are seeking. We have high hopes for our neighborhood elementary school, and we are measuring success by more than test scores.

And before you blame the difficulties of this HUGE urban education system on one person, Barack Obama, which is about as ridiculous as blaming the outcome of the Vietnam War on John McCain (both have served in war zones of a different kind, no?), I'd make the point that unless you are in the city trying to change the system from the inside out (as many families and local politicians are trying to do), your criticism of it and of paying taxes for public education is doing nothing but presenting another barrier for improvement.  Anne, are you involved in the CPS system? Do you teach in it? Did your kids attend schools in it? Or are you just analyzing it from the suburbs?  I'm really interested in hearing about your involvement.

Thanks. 

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