He feels though, that as a white male that he has no right to speak out about the expectations of modern women without getting crucified.

Dh had noticed all the classifieds filled with over 30 women now looking to settle down and make babies also had these huge long lists of criterias for the men....things like large income, big house, big on buying stuff for the women, etc etc....

He wondered at the mentality of a women who had focused on career (and partying, no doubt) that she suddenly felt that being married meant being taken care of in a totally selfish and insulting manner. That these so called intelligent women wanted to now be trophy wives....but without realizing that if the men they wanted to make babies with wanted trophy wives they would look for young and less opinionated stock.

I think women today are very mixed up about what we want vs what is fair.....and we just blame the men all the time.

Look for me at http://crunchycarpets.com or check out the ladies at www.wetcoastwomen.com

"Do we as women really believe we are entitled to the lifestyles we want just because we are female? [...] The female caller claimed that women have been controlled for years and it's time for us to stand up and tell men where to go."

That just sounds like revenge to me, not my brand of feminism or that of most feminists I know.
__

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Hi Dana! Here's my two cents.

In a matter of months, I'll be quitting my job to be a stay-at-home mom to my toddler son and my brand new baby, yet arrived. We will have to scrimp and do without and probably go on some form of welfare to make ends meet. Life will not be easy, and as the homemaker, I'll be doing my best to make sure we're living as simply and cheaply as we can.

When I got married, I wasn't marrying a checkbook or a sugar daddy. DH knew that eventually, I'd like to stay home to raise our children. He was supportive, but he didn't make it a requirement either way. After the first was born, we decided that we would still be benefitting enough from my income to have Ben go to daycare. With the second baby, daycare costs would double, and take almost 90 percent of my income. It doesn't make sense anymore for me to work.

So DH will be the breadwinner. And I'll be home, raising babies and caring for our home. I'll be there to support and encourage my husband, and he'll be there for me. That being said, I'd like to think that if I were the one with the job that paid more, he'd also be willing and enthusiastic about staying home.

I got the tail end of Montel Tuesday afternoon. He had the mommy wars on his show. There was one lady who was up there saying that we weren't being fair to our children if we didn't work outside the home. What kind of example are we setting? That stay-at-home mothers don't have to work for a living? That we can depend on others to care for our needs?

I kind of fall in the middle of the extremes. I think I'll do a good job raising my kids, even though they would fair okay at daycare. I will be a valuable part of the household, and even though I won't be bringing home a paycheck, I'll be working diligently to make whatever money we have coming into the house work harder. I'll explain to them that I decided to leave the workforce to stay home and raise terrific kids, but I'll tell them that all families get to make their own decisions about it.

As far as the decision-making guidelines in our house, we don't make a lot of distinctions. I oversee our finances, but I don't make a lot of purchases without talking to DH about them. I give him a budget for any projects he wants to do. We both make decisions about Ben, and we're equally involved in his upbringing and medical issues. I might make suggestions about ways to do things, but that's only because I came to the "family" with previous childcare experience, not just because I'm the mommy.

I get so sick of women who bash men like that. When it comes to the gender wars, I'll usually take the man's side because I feel like they get a bad rap nowadays. Most men I know are sensitive, caring, proud, responsible people, and I feel no need to assert my place in society by trashing them every chance I get.

Cheryl from http://redpens-diapers.blogspot.com

Thank you for bring up this topic. I agree with most of the interesting views. Personally, I believe that today's gender equality is about choices. Choices that we make as women in our personal, family and professional life. Like you, after having my first child, I had to get part-time work to help my family. But now that we are expecting our second child and due to better financial position, my husband and I agree that I will stay at home. I feel lucky to have the choice of being a mother and wife first rather than a career woman.

For those parents with school aged kids, here's a useful site, schoolparent.net. The site have online directory and sign up sheet templates for school activities, field trips and fundraising. Schoolparent.net is a free site and you just need to request an invitation to join.

Dana,

I too often struggle with the concept that men have it rough when it comes to custody battles and decision-making for their children. We should be ENCOURAGING those men who do make wonderful fathers, are caring and sensitive and respectful of their wives' choices. Women like these are simply exploiting those men.

I am a feminist, one that firmly believes we need to be fighting for equality and not dominance. I think some women forget that we are just as responsible for the decisions that WE make for ourselves.

I think the most important thing for married couples is to talk talk and talk some more about expectations about things like employment and children. Communication--and compromise--is key. (Just 2 cents coming from a 24-year-old definitely NOT married young woman, so I haven't personally put this to the test yet.)

Thanks for shedding light on an important topic!

Jessabean
Unquiet Heart

Before, women weren't allowed to make any money, so they didn't have any choices except to make themselves look good and learn proper etiquette so that men would want to marry them and take care of them. The man's job was to provide food, clothing, shelter & protection for himself, his wife, and whatever kids they had. The woman's job was to support the man by taking care of him, the house and the kids.

Now, women make their own money, so women get to make decisions on whom they hook up with and why. They're now in the same position the men have been in forever. Just like there was no need for men to court women that didn't look good, clean the house, know how to act when having company over or out in public and have and take care of the kids... there's no need now for women who already have their own careers, houses, friends and money to accept men that don't meet their specific requirements for a boyfriend or husband.

At this point in time, men OR women can be perfectly self-sufficient. There's no need to create a family unit at all. Previously, women, with no access to income, were under pressure to attach themselves to a successful man, or else they would be stuck living in their parents' house, getting called an "old maid". That's over now.

Meanwhile, there are two different sets of men now... the ones that are interested in this 'new' style of relationship and those that are not. This is why women can't understand it when they're well educated and successful in their careers and the man they want chooses a woman (or multiple women) that never went to college and have minimum-wage jobs. Only one set of men has changed their value system for whom they want to be in a relationship with to the 'new' style.

The trick is to have like-minded people hook up together. The women who don't want to work after they have kids need to get together with the men who don't want their wives to work. The women who don't want to have kids at all need to hook up with men that don't want to have kids at all. Women who don't want to keep themselves in shape or looking attractive need to hook up with men who don't care how they look or accept them under whatever conditions. Women who want their man to clean the house or take out the garbage or mow the lawn or take the kids out to play need to hook up with men that are interested in doing those things in the first place.

It's not really about 'equality'... it's more about what each person is looking for in a SO, and whether what that person's bringing to the table fulfills those desires.

--
Bill Cammack
Video Editor
BillCammack.com

Link TextYour Daily Cents
An argument can be made that women have a sense of entitlement after centuries (millennia?) of societal custom and codified law that prevented them from control of money, land and inheritance.
The sad truth is here, in 21st USA -- and most of the world, for that matter -- we only value what we pay for. And the more we pay for it, the more value it must have.
That has to be the reason Fortune 500 CEOs (about 99% men) make unconscionable salaries with stratospheric bonuses and option packages and hop from job to job -- usually before the bad news is announced.
So, as they said in Watergate, follow the money. Yes, we may have “bought” the liberation con (it’s Orwellian, in the “big lie” sense of things -- liberation is working outside and inside the home), but “God bless the child that has her own.” Women need money in their own names -- that’s the liberation from centuries of being considered chattel.

Joint checking accounts; one or both of the account holders always (and it can be unconscious) has a sort of "what's yours is mine, and what's mine is mine" frame of reference. Twenty-nine years into my (first) marriage, we have a joint checking account, which I rarely use, and I have my own. I certainly contribute to our combined bills -- as a matter of fact, I'm currently the chief breadwinner -- but I value that the money sits there with my name on it. I understand that not all women feel the same way I do -- and I don't define myself by the money that is there; I just like the, well, empowerment of having it.

What a great collection of thoughts and opinions here with this discussion.

I think the most successful relationships are based on shared values, on what talking easily and often about what matters to each other so communication is open and coming from a shared place. (different to same place)

I think feminism is about choice and equality, not aggression and anger. I think the women of 100 years ago who fought so hard for equality (think of Mrs Pankhurst) would be amazed at the thought of nasty, cruel, selfish actions would be masquerading as feminism

My cousin has gone through a nightmarish divorce where his ex wife has made the most horrible allegations that have gone through the courts (where they have been found false) and she is harming the children with the insecurities she is creating for them but the system prefers putting children with mothers rather than fathers. I completely agree there needs to be more balances and equality in the family court processes and results.

It would be better for these particular children to be with their father than mother but changing the system is hard and I don't know if it will be possible before the children reach adulthood and start getting some counseling help of their own to sort out the harm done by a cruel and selfish person.

Whereas equality for women and men would create a better world for adults as well as children. It would mean creating systems that are robust enough to withstand selfish and nasty behavior.

As for ideas on daycare children need the structured development and interaction with peers and I for one don't have a degree in early childhood development and don't know many parents who do. Being able to get to childcare with a well structured program (required by law so that's useful) for sometime each week benefits children. It has no comment on a parent's ability at all, it is about giving children the early development opportunities they need so when they get to going to school they are with or ahead of the pack, rather than at the back.

Remember, a child is raised by a village, not an individual or two.

I can see easily the sense of a stay home parent for the early years but what about once they're at school? What about being part of the income generation for the family then either part time or full time? What about the other parent that's been working all the time to bring in the money, don't they deserve a break? Wouldn't it be fair to share the efforts?

I work from home with my own business, I have a lot of freedom and I created my life on purpose like this and I see how there are the possibilities all round to do this so I am biased about having so much choice because I know it is in abundance.

Just to finish, I saw an interview with a woman who'd been married 60+ years and when asked what had made a successful marriage she said "I married a kind man who didn't drink". Very simple, the kind man part is universal, the drinking bit reflects on her society at her time. Kindness goes a long way.

Smiles
Belinda

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PS. What does DH mean?

She went on to say that this is a new millennium and women should not be pressed to work outside the home if they have children, and that men are responsible for providing the women with a beautiful home, a brand new mini-van and an allowance for nice clothes. The children should have a well-rounded upbringing, great education and all their needs should be met, she said.

It seems to me that many women have missed that equality works both ways. The caller wanted choices for herself, but denied men choices. She resented the roles that society still tends to assign to women, but had no problem assigning highly restrictive and soul-destroying roles to men. This isn't feminism, this is entitlement.

"Look at the tv. Look at all the sitcoms today FILLED with dopey fat husbands married to good looking wives...how is it that things haven't changed since The Honeymooners on tv?

Gender stereotypes abound and nobody blinks."

I'm so glad you said this. I whole-heartedly agree.

Dana
Mamalogues.com
In the St. Louis Post-Dispatch
Pop Mama
Since Eve

Crunchy Carpets, Dana From Mamalogues -- Instantly I think of "According to Jim". Such a mismatch it seems. Courtney Thorne-Smith and Jim Belushi? For real?

It's a funny show, but rarely do we see these couples in our neighborhoods. At least I have none in mine.

Dana from The Dana Files.